the importance of the jazz bass

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irvinz
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by irvinz » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:47 pm

i could get in trouble here.....

but leo was a genius with the G&Ls.

ok well not a genius, but a lil bit more innovative.

the real reason why fender don't really have 'new designs' is because the old ones sell.

i have yet to play a really old fender that plays and sounds really well. i dont think i would buy one for playability (but more to investment i guess)

low mass bridges have another piece of argument to it, which all boils down to taste. the fact that leo fender had (correct me if im wrong) high mass bridges on his other two companies does say something.


back to the thread really. i got a jazz. =( was hard to miss tonally. but when you play one, you go, ahh, thats right =)
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Crazykiwi
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:23 pm

irvinz wrote: ok well not a genius, but a lil bit more innovative.
He was HONEST! :)
irvinz wrote:the real reason why fender don't really have 'new designs' is because the old ones sell.
Couldn't agree more, but that just illustrates Fender's marketing focus. Why bother trying to reinvent the wheel if the wheel sells? Lets just make more varieties of the wheel and see what people go for. It's a very japanese approach to marketing and they deserve respect for that if nothing else. On learning how much of the relicking market Bill Nash was cornering in Fender replicas (using Fender licensed parts), Fender then released the 'road worn' series so they could directly compete.

Fender are uber conservative yet very responsive, its so japanese its ridiculous.
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by irvinz » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:28 pm

yet to play a nash bass so i can't comment much
but heck those roadworn stuff are hella awesome.
that said even the vm squier stuff is pretty swell.
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Crazykiwi
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:55 am

irvinz wrote:yet to play a nash bass so i can't comment much
but heck those roadworn stuff are hella awesome.
that said even the vm squier stuff is pretty swell.
Nash makes his instruments out of Fender licensed parts so there's not much of a difference between to two.
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by foal30 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:09 pm

heh,

the art came before the commerce. Famous people did not take a punt, they knew it sounded (and played ) good.

I do agree we all have certain "brand awareness/loyalty" and yes I very much like my Fender's but I do have a choice in what I play in an economic sense. This may not have been the case in the late '60s when Fender upped the ante on production and did become ubiquitous, certainly in a recording sense.

But i do think the early guys chose and made Fender because it played and sounded great. If this was not the case market saturation and effective PR/Endorsements would have amounted to nought.

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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:39 pm

foal30 wrote:heh,the art came before the commerce. Famous people did not take a punt, they knew it sounded (and played ) good.
The industrial design definitely came before the commerce, thats not being questioned. :) They were well designed because, amongst other things, they were solid bodied and highly portable compared to the alternatives available at the time. That's what made them convenient to use and engineer for.
foal30 wrote:But i do think the early guys chose and made Fender because it played and sounded great. If this was not the case market saturation and effective PR/Endorsements would have amounted to nought.
But what does 'great' mean to you? Something that sounds good to you now? That's fair enough but you can't take the same set criteria that you have developed as a bass player in the 21st century playing your Steiny XL2 and a load of other basses that weren't around in the 60's and say that musicians back in the 60's looked at instruments in the same way. They didn't. Fenders became popular originally for a whole load of reasons that had less to do with their sound as we now value it, and more to do with their OVERALL ease of use.

In any case, even if players back in the 60's HAD the same view of instruments that we have now, pre-CBS instruments back then would have sounded...new! :)
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by foal30 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:35 pm

yes it's unlikely that a career musician would be in a position to select their instrument solely on the criteria of sound alone.

all workpeople incorporate differing factors into selecting/purchasing the right tools

unless it's Bunnings time

the combination of features offered by the Fender Bass wins in a number of ways. Unquestionably I agree that later on economic and fashion "issues" overplay their hand but in the late 50's - early '60's brilliant music was made on a brilliant new instrument.

Jamerson sounds good right? I mean this is Bass Guitar? Quintessential Bass Guitar :D
and I'm like how does this amazing sound happen?

and people will go it's on a P Bass etc
so you got to get a P Bass
or an Ampeg
and LaBella's :) but anyway it's not just the great playing it was great sounding
and fanboys everywhere (myself included) need this
we want the closeness of authenticity and the connection's that implies.

why play a Hofner. they are for all extents and purposes pieces of s**t but association of Music means they fetch ridiculous cred and $

If it did not Sound good they could not of worked. If the P Bass sounded like pants then that days arbiter of taste would have denied them a future because who has studio time to waste on shoddy instruments or making hard work for engineers? The Laws of Commerce would have entered into play here I think.

Conversely Studio Owners had shares in CBS :D

Yes, my context is clearly shaped by the facts of my experience
and it's an L2 :) I'm sensitive about this :)

I understand your application and insights into what was available and the most likely course of action for players of the day. But I can't believe Chuck Rainey or Jerry Jemmott picked the Bass because it was sunburst and horizontal. It had to sound *BANNED* hot and be Music.

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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:28 am

OK, still feel like my points haven't been addressed. So I can't take the discussion on much further at this point unless I refocus.

1) Do you accept that the tonal quality of a 1960 Fender instrument would have sounded different back then to how it sounds now?

2) Do you also accept that there are two standards of taste being applied here because yours relies on the benefit of hindsight and knowing a whole lot of musical history while the musicians playing on those records would have been more concerned about how the Fender as a solid bodied bass guitar compares to early 1960 alternatives like the EB0 or a double bass?

3) Do you accept that famous players may have had other reasons to play Fenders apart from the sound? That the design and adoption by the recording industry may have played as big apart in them being used so widely on recordings? In the same way that we all accept Windows as an industry standard even though Linux and MacOS are technically superior products?
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by foal30 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:21 pm

1.

er, probably, I was not around in 1958-65 to know. But it had to sound good then, it does now and we have had 50 years of supposed technological advancement.

2.

um, we are both applying revisionist history. I understand that Lionel Hampton telling his employee Monk Montgomery to play a Fender because it sounds better or be fired, can be countered with carrying a P Bass on the subway is better than a Doghouse.

3. yeah clearly, I've stated as much. But the overriding reason of the Fender Bass was that it sounded great to people whose business was making great sounding music. Without this the other factors cannot begin to apply, surely?

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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:55 pm

foal30 wrote:1. But it had to sound good then, it does now and we have had 50 years of supposed technological advancement.
But how do you know that the sound was so important back then given Fender didn't really care that much about it in their manufacturing?
foal30 wrote:3. yeah clearly, I've stated as much. But the overriding reason of the Fender Bass was that it sounded great to people whose business was making great sounding music. Without this the other factors cannot begin to apply, surely?
Of course they can begin to apply. Without the design being in place, you wouldn't have the sound! The design begat the sound, not the other way around.
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by foal30 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:26 pm

1.How do I know Fender did not care about sound? I do not know this.

I am picking the Record Producer chose to have an electric bass on the session because it sounded good, not because the skunk stripe was en vouge.

3. heh I disagree Comrade
It's about the sound. A Musical Instrument is being made, it's about the sound. Entering the market with a new "product" it has to sound good. This is the beginning, every other consideration can be mitigated in 99% of occasions, a poorly sounding instrument given the options available means, to me at least, Leo Fender designed a fantastic "sounding" instrument.

what is a similar example? I am sitting on a chair. Why am i sitting on a chair? Because it is comfortable. If the chair was not comfortable I have no chair, or another chair. After the chair is comfortable I may select the color blue, wheels, vibrational mode, back support, o ring cushion :shock: beer mug holder, whatever

but if my chair is not comfortable chair is not here.

Yes you can Design me a "better" chair Steve, as you can design me a "better" bass. But the first chairs worked because their FUNCTION was applicable in their real life manifestations

whoah got Marx into Bassplayer :D

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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by Crazykiwi » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:54 pm

foal30 wrote: 3. heh I disagree Comrade
It's about the sound. A Musical Instrument is being made, it's about the sound. Entering the market with a new "product" it has to sound good. This is the beginning, every other consideration can be mitigated in 99% of occasions, a poorly sounding instrument given the options available means, to me at least, Leo Fender designed a fantastic "sounding" instrument.
Well fair enough on disagreeing, its just a matter of opinion after all. But I think you're missing the main point I'm making completely. :)
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by ryla » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:39 pm

...erm, just to move on - whats the difference between the old fender jazz and the fender jazz deluxe - i know the deluxe has the active option but is this at the expense of the old passive sound, and which would you go for - also what strings would you have on it (im hung up on strings)?

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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by irvinz » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:08 pm

old fender jazz? as in the standard?

standard. yes, at the expense of the old passive sound. i''ll go for the standard and go for external preamps. tho most deluxe basses have nicer details. like fancy logos etc.

strings? rotosounds. 45-105
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Re: the importance of the jazz bass

Post by foal30 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:49 pm

hullo Nev,

what do you need the Bass to do
if it's all purpose #1 many gig bass maybe the Deluxe is the option

if it's part of a number of basses in your collection then get the standard and an external pre-amp when you want a hot-rodded sound.
like a Sadowky :D

passive Jazz is a great sound in and of itself

strings, again how many basses?
I have DR Bootsy's on the fretted ,71
and Chromes on the fretless boner

but i would like a fretted Jazz with flats because I quite like the "flat picked" sound ala Joe Osburn or even Sting (Police days).

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